Join me in welcoming back the amazing authors and Christians Rick & Jane McKinney. In this episode we talked about their amazing new book, and we are blessed with more of their amazing wisdom! Great conversation from a great husband & wife team!

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Guest Books (Must Read!):

  • Until the Whole World Knows: A Guide to Sharing Jesus for the Introvert, Extrovert, and Jesus Freak – Are you ready to confidently and effectively share the gospel of Jesus with others? With “Until the Whole World Knows,” you will learn how to overcome fear and make a lasting impression as you share your faith. Get ready to discover new ways to spread the good news and tell the greatest story of all time!
  • And…So We Walked: The Inspirational Story of a Couple’s Walk Across America – As a must-read for spiritual seekers, devout or aspiring Christians, and anyone who wants to discover how an ordinary husband-and-wife team became long-distance trekkers and tackled a challenge beyond their wildest dreams, And… So We Walked stands as an uplifting testament to the amazing things that can happen when you listen to the voice of God.
  • They Walked Where!?: Rick and Jane’s Big Adventure – Maybe you’d like to take a long trip to a faraway place or even ride in a hot air balloon. Almost everyone wants to go on adventures. They can be fun, exciting, and a great way to meet new people. Rick and Jane went on a giant adventure. One so big that you may have a hard time believing it. But it’s true. Rick and Jane walked all the way across America!

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Transcript

Jason: Welcome back and thank you for joining me. My name is Jason and I'm your host. Today, we have another first for the mind ministry mission podcast. I have the great privilege of speaking to Rick and Jane McKinney for the second time. So back in November of 2023, I published episode 42 with this amazing couple who came on the show to talk about their inspiring story of walking from Santa Monica, California to the steps of the Supreme court over the course of about six months, and then 17 years later, they wrote a book about it called, "And...so we walked".

Today, we get to hear from them again about their most recent book "Until the Whole World Knows: A Guide to Sharing Jesus for the Introvert Extrovert and Jesus Freak." It's an amazing read. And if you take the great commission, seriously, it's definitely a book you want in your spiritual arsenal. I have included links in the show notes to all of their wonderful books, as well as their websites and social media.

Please take a look and considering adding them to your library. So let's get started with Rick and Jane.

Jason: So welcome back.

Rick: Thank you.

Jason: I'm so thrilled to have you guys back the last conversation we had went on these wonderful tangents. The spirit was there. He was guiding us. So I have high hopes for today.

Rick: Okay, good. Good. We hope so too.

Jason: So when I started this podcast, I had no idea where it would take me. I still don't, but I've had the great privilege of talking to some deeply spiritual people. I include the two of you in that list as well. And I feel like God has really blessed me on my faith journey. But Jane. I have to let you know, you got to me last time.

Jane: Okay.

Jason: You told me God may not ask me to walk across the country, but he will ask me to walk across the street.

Jane: That's right.

Jason: I took that to heart and I've been working on getting to know my neighbors, my coworkers, my faith family, and so on. You know, I actively look for opportunities to share the gospels. And now that you've written this book, I have no excuses.

Jane: Isn't that the truth?

Rick: truly true.

Jane: Yep. There's something for everyone in this book.

Rick: As a matter of fact, I just was sharing with Jane this morning that I had this idea about we live on a cul de sac out in the country. There aren't a lot of activities around. We have some neighbors that are I guess dysfunctional is a, is a good word they probably won't be listening to this podcast, but,

Jane: let's just say they're different from us.

Rick: They're different from us. And there are only five of us on this little street. We have a little 10 by 20 tent that we use in craft shows. And I said, I really feel like we need to pitch that tent. Get the grill out and invite all of our neighbors over for a little block party, which is one of the ideas in the book.

But we've never done it here. Now we've done it other places, but we've never done it here. So we're challenged all the time to just share the good news in ways that we can. You don't have to beat people over the head with a 40 pound Bible in order to get the message across. Mostly what people are looking for is love and acceptance.

And you're reaching out to your neighbors as a perfect example of that. When you reach out and you just treat people with respect and you love them and treat them as an equal, no matter who they are. They are much more open to listening to the message of Jesus.

Jason: Oh, absolutely. But I want to kind of circle back. You guys have this new book and because this is really important to me to read this part of the book. In the beginning, you answer the question, why another book? And it's a pretty fair question. There's a lot of books on this subject. And unless I'm wrong, if you don't buy the book, you don't get to read that part.

So I thought it'd be good to give you guys the, the opportunity to answer that question for people listening. Why should they buy this book? Why another book?

Rick: Well, we really felt like that most evangelism books are good tools. They're great information, but they really rely on people being willing to speak. To confront people one on one. A lot of times they require memorizing scripture or a specific step by step plan to take people through salvation. And that's great.

And a lot of people have come to Jesus that way. And a lot of people are comfortable sharing that way, but I think the vast majority of people aren't. They're either afraid of confrontation. They, they don't feel capable of memorizing all that stuff that they need to memorize. And they just, that's not them.

You know, most people would never guess it about me, but I am a profound introvert. And so people who are introverts don't particularly like to go out and just knock on people's door or talk to people on the street. Now, God has, Kind of enabled me to do that in situations where I need to do it, but that's not my natural tendency.

And I think a lot of people are like that. One of the things I found out about authors when we started writing books was that most authors are introverts. And that's one of the reasons they write because that is their way of talking to people without having to talk to people. And so if you're an introvert or.

If you're a person who doesn't like to leave your house, for example, there are still ways that you can evangelize and share the message of Jesus some of them without even saying a word. And that's why we wrote the book because we wanted an evangelism book for everybody, not just the Jesus freaks who go out and are bold and are, you know, very boisterous and even.

Preach on the street corners. That's great too, but not all of us can do that. And so I hope this is a book for every single person. I think there are no excuses after you read this book for not being able to share Jesus.

Jason: That's the truth. I mean, I told you, you took all my excuses away, so now I have to go do stuff. So, and this, this kind of leads to a question I didn't really think of before. I was leaving the store the other day and there was a gentleman on the corner with a big speaker and a microphone with a group of people and they were praying and he was shouting into the microphone and it got me thinking, who's actually hearing that? I'm sure it reaches some people, but. You also have to consider that introvert extrovert is, is receiving side too.

Rick: Yes.

Jason: So if you're, if you're being an extrovert and you're doing extrovert things to somebody who's an introvert, they may not receive that the same way.

Jane: Right. Right. And that that may totally turn people off. I mean, that may not be what reaches them. And so you're right. There are, there are different ways of presenting the gospel and there are different ways of receiving for sure.

Rick: And what you have to hope is that if, if God tells you to go out on a street corner with a microphone and a speaker and preach, that's what you ought to do.

And we trust God's leadership enough to know that he's going to have somebody there who's going to receive that. But don't do that if that's not what God's called you to do. And I think that's the point we, we have tried to kind of cookie cutter evangelism and put it in a box and say, this is a one size fits all and it isn't.

Every person's different. Their personality is different. Their ability to speak with people. You know, if you, if you really can't talk to people, or if you really have a fear about that, you're probably not going to be an effective witness doing that. So you need to find the area where you can be effective and do that.

If it's baking cookies, bake cookies, you know, you don't have to say a word to bake a batch of cookies and send them over to your neighbor's house with a note that says, Jesus loves you. That's, that's an easy thing to do and it doesn't require anything, but a little bit of your money and time. And so there are dozens of ideas like that in the book that help people be able to reach out and love people in Jesus name, regardless of who they are.

Jason: Absolutely. Yeah. It brings us back to the great commission. And, and I actually had kind of a note here and if you guys will permit me, I'd like to read Matthew 28:16-20 and then get your feedback on it. Okay. So Matthew 28 :16-20, it reads, "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, till the very end of the age." I read that and I'm like, wow, but what first comes to your mind when you hear that?

Jane: There's a couple of things that have always stood out to me in that passage, and one of them, Rick, as my pastor. Taught me many years ago that Jesus said, all authority is given to me in heaven and in earth. If I belong to Jesus and he is in me, which I believe he is, then I have that authority as well.

I have the power to go out and tell, I have the power to live my life, so people see Jesus through me. So that's, what's always kind of stuck out to me. Is that he's given me the authority to do that. So not only am I instructed to do it, but I have the power to do it.

Rick: I think another thing that sticks out to me in that verse. Jason is one of the things that I think so many Christians misunderstand. What he asked us to do was make disciples of Jesus. And I think what we have equated evangelism with for so many years is making disciples of the church. And we love the church. We're part of a church. We're active in our church. We support it. We tithe, we give of our time and our talents and our resources, but inviting people to church. is not the same as inviting people to Jesus. And so a lot of people have kind of copped out on evangelism by making themself feel good about inviting people to church. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, but if you invite people to church, the chances are if they're not a church goer, if they're not a Christian, they probably already have 10 reasons not to go to church.

Some Christian somewhere along the way, or somebody who. claim to be a Christian, did them wrong or told a lie about them or talk behind their back. Or they've seen a church split and they've seen how nasty church splits can be and how nasty Christians can be. We shouldn't be, but we're all human and we make mistakes.

And so when you invite somebody to church, they probably already have a whole list of reasons why they're going to tell you no. And, and some of them, quite frankly, to be very honest, are probably good reasons, but. If you invite people to Jesus, that's a whole different dynamic. All of a sudden, there are reasons for not liking church or not liking Christians have to be put aside because now you're not asking them to like a church or attend a church.

You're asking them to confront the person of Jesus. He's much harder to have a problem with. And you know, people, people will tell us all the time. And when we were walking across America, that was one of the things we heard often. We don't have a problem with Jesus. We have a problem with His people.

And so. You're not inviting people to join His people. You're asking people to join Him. And there's a huge difference. And I think that's what the great commission says. I think it says, make disciples of Jesus. Tell them who Jesus is. If you tell them who Jesus is, they'll fall in love with him. Just like the original 12 disciples did just like all of us have who are believers.

When you really know who he is, you fall in love with him. And so that's, That's what we want to share with people who he is and what he looks like. And we're to be an accurate reflection of him to this world, just like the moon reflects the sun, we're to reflect Jesus. So what people see in us ought to reflect him pretty accurately.

And one of the ways we can do that is just by consistently loving people around us in his name.

Jason: yeah, absolutely. And that kind of brings up another thread is I've heard people warn, don't step over the Great Commandment to get to the Great Commission. And I think you guys actually address this in the book quite well, because you cautioned several times. Let's keep away from the negative messaging.

I mean, there's a time and a place to discuss the wrath of God, but maybe we just start small, right? Maybe we start with the good stuff and then they don't have to worry about the wrath of God so much.

Jane: Right. And I mean, it's like the preacher on the corner preaching hell, fire and brimstone. That's probably not going to win a whole lot of people to Jesus. It may. Somebody may be convicted and confronted with their sin. But that's probably not the best place to start.

Rick: You know, and Jesus, Jesus talked very little about hell, and he affirmed the reality of hell and he talked about hell, but that was not his primary message and so we never want to fall into the trap of trying to scare people emotionally into heaven. One, it doesn't work. And any emotional decision that people make based on just trying to escape hell probably isn't genuine.

And it's probably gonna kind of phase out pretty quick. As soon as the threat of hell is gone they're, they're going to lose that commitment to Christ. But if they fall in love with Jesus, it's just like marriage, you know an arranged marriage where you marry somebody simply because you're afraid of what your future father in law might do to you if you don't.

That, that makes for a pretty poor marriage. But if you fall in love with somebody and you want to spend your life with them, that's a whole different dynamic and the same thing with Jesus. And that's the difference between having a relationship with Jesus and, and doing religion. When we do religion, we generally do it out of fear or out of trepidation, or we think God's going to hit us upside of the head with a ball bat.

If we do certain things or don't do certain things, Instead of falling in love with who he is. And then you know, Jesus said it about as plainly as you can. He says, if you love me. You'll keep my commandments, but the motivation is love. The motivation is not fear. And that's what we have to share with people.

Jason: Yep. His message was follow me. Don't worry about hell. Don't worry about how this other stuff follow me and I'll teach you the way. One of the questions that I thought of that I was curious about more, more curiosity and thing is, do you guys have a particular gospel that you connect with more than others?

Jane: We're reading Luke right now and I really like Luke.

Jason: There

Jane: I, I like him a lot. I like his nativity story. And I like the fact that he just tells the stories, he just tells the stories, but I know a lot of people like John better.

Rick: So, yeah, Luke is is different. It, it is one of the synoptic gospels, but Luke is different in that Luke didn't walk with Jesus.

And so he gathered these stories from eyewitnesses and Spent a lot of time and effort gathering these stories together so that he could share them accurately. And he actually says that when he begins acts when he tells Theophilus that he's gathered these stories together to preserve this story.

The other gospels are written from a kind of a I was there perspective. And so there are They're more subjective, I think. Luke's gospel is more objective. Everybody always told me growing up, you should tell new converts to read John and, I find that probably not the best advice because, because the first few verses of John to a new Christian are very confusing and starts talking about the word and the word was with God.

And we understand that now from a perspective of being a child of God. But. A new Christian or a person who's searching for answers that could be confusing. Matthew starts with a long genealogy, which is very difficult for you know, the first chapter you're going to read is going to be a, you know, family tree that's probably not interesting to most people. Mark is good, I think, because it's short, it's concise. It probably is written from a first person, I experienced this kind of perspective. But I love Luke and I, I think Luke has a lot to offer. Most of the time when I preach from the gospels, I preach from Luke.

Jason: Nice.

Jane: See, I didn't, I didn't know he was going to say that.

Jason: Well, and I do love John, but I started to love John after I Actually did a deep dive into the first chapter of John. When you understand that introduction, you're like, wow, that's so powerful. But yeah, if you're just reading it, you're like, I don't, yeah, don't get it.

Rick: Yeah, it's a very deep theological gospel. And, and John is writing it from the perspective of trying to accomplish some of those theological and doctrinal issues. But Luke is more of a, this is the story. I want to tell you the story. And I'm a storyteller and I love hearing stories. And so maybe that's why Luke appeals to us so much.

Jason: So I was going to ask if it's okay, if I share my favorite idea from the book, I don't want to give away too much. So my favorite is the covert operations where you find, you know, a piece of positive, friendly gospel put on a track and you go to a store and just kind of leave it in a book or magazine or, or pocket of a shirt or something like that.

And I thought, what a wonderful thing to do at a thrift store. Like I'm putting those two together. So I actually went out and ordered like a 50 packs. I don't have a color printer right now. I ordered a 50 pack of, of gospel tracks and that's what I'm doing from the book.

Rick: I have to, I have to tell you where that idea came from. Of course, most of these ideas we have kind of gathered over the years, some ideas from other people and some were trial and error on our part, but the covert operation came from a man named Arthur Blissett. Arthur is famous for walking his 12 foot wooden cross around the world in every country in every island group of the world.

And he happens to be a friend of ours and we've met him. He's been to our church and spoke and he's just a great guy. He's in his eighties now, so he's not walking the cross very much, but he's still on the internet. He still made a long post yesterday about the resurrection weekend and he's just a great guy.

But when he first started, he made some tapes. Back then they were tapes about videotapes about training people, how to be evangelistic. And one of the things he suggested, this is back in the day, most people alive today don't realize that this was a thing. But when I was a young man, You could go into any convenience store and back behind the counters. A lot of times, depending on the store, sometimes they were out in the open, there was pornography for sale. You could go into a lot of bookshops and there'd be whole racks full of playboy magazine and hustler and all those kinds of Magazines, pornography magazines. And Arthur said one of the first things he did when he began to try to reach people for Jesus was go in and take his tracks and put them inside the pornography.

So that when a guy got home and he opened up the book and he started to look at the pictures, there's a gospel track. And he said, it serves two purposes. One, if the guy's a Christian and he's doing that, all of a sudden he's going to get real convicted. And if he's lost, he's going to see the gospel.

Well, we don't have that ability anymore. Of course, pornography is all online now and not printed and not sold in most stores, but you can still go in and take a hot rod magazine and put a track in it or you know, a better homes and gardens and put a track in it. I think the tabloids at the checkout counter are great places to put tracks. Because those are generally people who are voracious readers. They're looking for excitement and fun and the latest gossip. And what's better gossip. Matter of fact, I think I'll write a track about the gossip. Of the gospel and that might that sounds good, honey, that, that might attract, that might attract some folks.

But yeah, that is a great, great idea. One of my favorites about, and, and I don't mind sharing what's in the book because we're more interested in people learning how to witness and share Jesus than we are about the couple dollars we make on a book. But one of my favorite things is. yard signs.

We have one in our yard right now, as a matter of fact, and it just says, love, your neighbor. But you can put a yard sign out there. And I say this in the book that says I'm praying for my neighbors today. So everybody who drives through your neighborhood and sees that sign they understand that you are a believer, that you're a Christian, and that you're spending time each day. Praying for them. And I always tell people, if you're going to put that sign out there, that you really need to be praying for them. But that's a completely silent witness. You don't have to say a word. You can take an old political yard sign that you don't use anymore, that's out of date.

Get a nice piece of poster board, make sure you print it nicely so that it's attractive. And then put that out in your yard. And I believe. That if you do that consistently maybe you do it one week out of the month. What's going to happen is people are going to start dropping by your house and they're going to say, Hey, I saw that sign out in front of your house that said you pray for your neighbors and. I've got something going on in my life right now. I have a child who's sick or I lost my job or whatever it happens to be. And I just wondered if you'd pray with me about that or pray for me.

And that's a great opportunity. When somebody says, pray for me, the first question you need to ask them is, so you believe in prayer and then just wait. because they, now they've got to answer the question. Well yeah, I guess I do. So you believe in God, you believe that he listens to us. You believe that he hears our prayers. Yeah, I guess so. Well, have you ever prayed and ask him yourself about this need? Or have you ever prayed and ask God to forgive your sins and to come into your life and walk with you through this life.

So once they ask for prayer, you've got a whole set of questions that you can ask them back, which will lead without being pushy and without being too you know, confrontational. They're just simple questions that they probably Won't mind answering. And you can ask them gently. And as you get the answers, you'll be able to read a lot more about where they are spiritually and know how to approach sharing Jesus with them.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Help me in my unbelief

Rick: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason: One deviation of that, the yard sign might be if you, if you're artistic is, out here we have all the houses have to have block walls around them, you know, and you could, you could write messages on your, on your, on your wall. Block wall for people to see driving by or driveway or something, get some chalk.

Rick: Yeah, absolutely.

Jason: And that's the thing is when you read this book, you're like, wow, that's really great, but I could do this or I could do that. Or, you know, you start to, it starts to really get the creative juices flowing.

Jane: does. And the Holy Spirit uses these ideas to spur ideas within yourself. So he says, okay, Rick and Jane did this so I can do this and you know, gives gives all kinds of new ideas. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah. And another one of the great ideas in the book, I think Jason is the PACK cards, P A C K planned act of Christian kindness.

And just as we were getting ready to start that. I walked into the room and a thought hit me. I think we need to have a whole bunch of those printed up and offer them to people on the website for free. Maybe send them 10 and let them try them out. But that's a great thing to do.

And line for coffee, just pay for the person behind you is coffee and then give the barista a pack card that says I just want you to know there are some of us who love Jesus and. He is causing us to love other people in real tangible ways. And so we wanted to buy your coffee today, or we wanted to buy your burger today, or whatever it happens to be.

You can take those and paperclip a dollar to them, drop them in the aisle at the grocery store and hide around the corner and wait for somebody to find it. My favorite is my favorites to put them in toys in the toy section and hide and watch, hide and watch children find it. And they'll run to their mom and say, I found a dollar and they don't care about the pack card.

They just care about the dollar, but they'll take the pack card and the dollar to mom, and then mom will read the PAC card and feel good about the child taking the dollar. So yeah, there are just lots and lots of ways like that to reach people all the time.

Jason: you can wrap it in money and give it to people who are on the side of the street, panhandling, you know, there's all sorts of ways. And I've done, I've done that. So we do, we do we call them five packs at our church. They'll give out five packs of cards to invite people to the church. And I've done that where I give a few bucks and I make sure to include one of those in there.

So. But speaking of ideas, I actually have an idea that I want to share with you guys and see what you

Jane: great.

Jason: I would love to see a community of witnesses based on this book, like a group where people can share their stories, how they've used ideas in the book, just kind of like we're doing now. Maybe post pictures and videos of themselves, go out in groups and share Jesus and just have this fantastic, you know, until the world knows community of people just working together.

Jane: I don't see any reason why. Yeah, well, we kind of have I think like a Sunday school class, a live group something like that.

Rick: A youth group. We think this is a great and we are getting ready to I just was talking to one of the people who helps us format these books for a sale about a workbook And unfortunately, Amazon has just clamped down on any kind of low content workbook.

They're really not going to let people sell those on Amazon anymore. So we're going to make them available through our through our website, but a workbook for. Youth groups to work through until the whole world knows with a companion workbook that gives them opportunity to say this week, are you through, it's going to go out and we're going to pass out breakfast bags at the corner.

That's one of the ideas in the book, you put an apple and maybe a Twinkie or two or three things in granola bar, go out to the street corner at seven in the morning when people are going to work and you have a pack card in it. And you just give those out at the, at the street corner when the traffic stops for the. For the red light.

So a youth group could go out and do that on a Saturday morning and then report back. But I think it's a great idea, Jason. I'm going to start working on that immediately and see if we can do something where they could record and then we'll post it on our website or we could even have a, we could even have a time of the week or maybe one, one hour a month, even When we publish a site like, like yours or like zoom or something like that.

Where anybody who wants to can join us and we'll just talk through it. So that is a great idea and we'll start working on it immediately. Thank you for that.

Jason: that'd be, that'd be so much fun.

Jane: Yeah, it would be.

Jason: So what, one of the questions since I have you guys here and I really have a high value of your, of your knowledge and wisdom. But one of the questions that I've been pondering lately for an episode even is what makes somebody a Christian? Like, when does somebody get to say, I am a Christian?

And that, that question has been haunting me lately. So I, I figure, while I have people to talk to and I've asked other people around, you know, what is it, you know, what do you say to somebody? If they're like, what makes me a Christian?

Rick: Yeah.

I think you go back to that word Christian and, and trace it back in scripture and they were first called Christians at Antioch the book of Acts says but that word Christian that was being used was not a a term of. It was a derogatory term and yeah, it, what it meant was you guys act like little Jesus's and so to be a Christian is to make a commitment and to have been transformed in such a way that people might mistake you for Jesus. That's a big, that's a big commitment and a big transformation. And it doesn't fit in with what we have. Told so many people we've told people that if they walk down an aisle or if they say a prayer and again, nothing wrong with either one of those things, but we've made it so easy to become a Christian or at least to give people the Impression that they're Christian, that there's no cost involved.

You know, you were talking about Jesus saying, come and follow me. And that is what he said. But then one of the next things he said is if you're going to follow me, you have to be willing to take up your cross and follow

Jason: And deny yourself. Pick up your cross and follow me.

Rick: yeah. And everybody knew in you know, the, the near East and in the first century, what that meant they saw people every day carrying their cross out to be crucified.

As a matter of fact on many of the main roads between cities, the Romans had built these incredible. Roads, and that's one of the things they were famous for. And along those roads if they had a bunch of tax evaders, people who wouldn't pay the Roman tax, they would crucify them alongside the road so that as you traveled back and forth, you saw those crucified people and it was an incentive for you to pay your taxes. It's kind of like corporal punishment to try to incentivize good behavior

Jane: because they, they put the crime on the cross, right? You know, they, you know, whatever they, they were guilty of, they put it on the cross.

Rick: So when Jesus says, if you're going to follow me, you have to be willing to take up your cross.

And people knew that what he was saying is following me could cost you your life. Following me you could end up on a cross. And so I think. Becoming a Christian and calling yourself a Christian. This isn't to put a big, heavy burden on people or to make people feel like, oh, I'm not a Christian, but it's simply to say that it is. An important decision. It is a life changing and a transforming decision. And it's one that requires a commitment on our part to follow Jesus, no matter what the cost. And so I think once a person has entered into that commitment and that relationship you can call yourself a Christian.

Now, I'm going to tell you that if a eight year old child or a 10 year old child. Is convicted and wants to receive Christ. Their understanding of, of that commitment is going to be much more elementary than somebody who's 30 or 40 years old because they're not going to have experienced the same sin. They're not going to have the same sin awareness. They're not going to have the same understanding of the world as a person who's three or four times their age, but as they are Able to understand that commitment.

Jane and I both accepted Christ at an early age and I knew I needed Jesus. I knew I needed forgiveness for my sins, but to be honest, at my age, I don't know that I'd committed a whole bunch of bad stuff. I was a pretty good kid. I was a little ornery, but I was a pretty good kid. And Jane was probably even a better kid.

So we weren't confronted with the. The horror of our sin, but we were confronted with the horror of the death of Jesus that he died in order to pay for my sin. And so I think when a person understands that and their response in love and appreciation for what Jesus did is, I love you for what you did for me. I want to follow you. I think that kind. Of decision is much more meaningful than I walked down an aisle and signed a membership card in a church. You know, it's, it's possible to be a member of a church. It's possible to do lots of religious stuff and not be a Christian. So to me, it has everything to do with heart transformation, not behavior modification.

It's not what you do. It's what your heart has prompted you to do and respond and love to what Jesus did for us on the cross and the fact that he is alive forevermore because on the third day. He rose from the grave

Jason: And that's,

Jane: that tomorrow.

Jason: yeah, as with this recording, it's tomorrow's Easter

Jane: Yes.

Jason: So and that, that brings me into another line of, of thought. There are a lot of people who are very. Uncomfortable sharing. Jesus are very uncomfortable talking about their faith. Personally, I feel like that is the enemy doing his work.

He's out there spreading, lies, making it awkward, mocking Christians, you know, people are afraid. That if I, if I show the world, or if I show this group of people that I love Christ and that I'm a, believer in Christ, that now I have to fulfill that need to, or that, that command to deny yourself, pick up the cross, whatever.

And if they just don't say anything, then they never have to confront it. And I think that's part of becoming a Christian is at some point it's going to cost you something. And Jesus warned us about that.

Rick: right. Yeah. And I, and I want to say this very carefully, Jason, cause I, I never want to be the guy who's being judgmental or, or throwing a doubt out on someone's salvation. But I will say this. I think if you are a person who professes Jesus and you have no compunction, you have no desire, you have no drive. to share what Jesus has done in your life with other people. I think that's a real red flag. And I think if you happen to be in that situation I would hope that you would go back and reexamine what you're calling a salvation experience, because I tell you, When you have experienced the fact that Jesus has saved you from an eternity without God, and you have experienced real forgiveness of your sin and your life has been turned right side up and inside out because of the change that Jesus has made in your heart, you're going to want to share that with somebody.

You may be timid, you may be an introvert, you may not be comfortable talking to people, but you're going to find some way to share that with people. Just like if you want a million dollars, you're going to want to share that. If you had cancer and they found a cure and you took a pill and you were well, one day when you woke up, you're going to call the family, you're going to call your friends and you're going to tell them what's happened.

When you experience forgiveness of sin and Jesus comes to live in your heart and you have a home in heaven, you're going to want to tell people that. And if you don't, if you really have no desire, I really, really hope you'll look at your salvation experience because I, I think that's one of the things we need to be very careful about is, is just making people feel good about some decision they've made in the past when there's absolutely no evidence that they know Jesus.

Jane: I, I also think a red flag Jason is when people don't care about those around them. If they don't care if they're going to hell, I mean, cause you know, literally every day we meet people everywhere we go that are going to hell. And if they don't care about that, then, then that's a red flag to me.

Rick: Yeah, it really is.

And again, the hell doesn't have to be. The primary focus of your message, but it ought to be one of the primary concerns of your heart. Because eternity is real and if people don't know Jesus, there is going to be an eternal price to pay for that. Because. God has made a way through his son Jesus for us to have salvation and to have forgiveness and to have eternity in the presence of God.

And people who ignore that or who say no to that or who refuse to accept that gift have a consequence that they're going to have to deal with. And we know from scripture that that's true. And although I'm not going to go out on the street corner, I'm going to tell people you're going to hell or that's true.

That yard sign I put in my there's, we pass a bridge all the time and there's a sign up on the bridge. That basically it's kind of in your face and basically it says you're going to hell. And, and I think, wait a minute. If I'm going to put anything up on the bridge, I'm going to say. Would you like to go to heaven?

Don't you want to go to heaven? Don't you want to, don't you want to have peace? Don't you want an abundant life? I mean, there's better ways to get the message out. But yeah, I think when people don't care about those who are lost, it's, it's a real problem. And we have become so numb to the fact, especially church people, we've become so numb to that whole idea of, You know, if we, if we really believed that people who die without Jesus spend eternity in hell, I think we'd be different than we are.

We'd act different. We'd tell more people we'd share with our family. I think we've kind of bought into the world's philosophy that says, you know, God's a good God. He's a loving God. He's not going to send anybody to hell. Everybody's going to go to heaven. And so no matter what funeral you go to, you're they're going to talk about this person being in heaven.

They may have been the worst sinner in the world. They may have had no regard for God and somebody is going to try to preach him into heaven because we believe everybody goes to heaven. Everybody becomes angels. Both of those are lies.

Jason: Right.

Rick: Nobody becomes an angel. God's got all the angels he needs. And if he needs some more angels, he'll make angels.

He won't take people from earth to change them into angels. But you know, we, that's another story. Kind of persuaded by the world into all these false ideas about how God is going to just let everybody into heaven

Jane: and we just say, oh, they're in a better place. Well, they may not,

Rick: they may not be in a better place and so much worse place, but I think we tell ourself that to make ourself feel good about the fact that we never told him about Jesus in the first place and now they're probably paying the price because we Didn't care enough about them to share Jesus.

Jason: Yeah. Absolutely. So I have to ask, do you guys have any other book ideas percolating? I mean, you know, Rick blink twice. If you're, if you're working on a new wait, sorry, this is an audio podcast. Rick cough twice. If you're working on a new book,

Rick: Yeah. As a matter of fact, I was just writing before we got on the podcast with you today. I'm working on a book. I hope it's going to be out this fall. It is a book about living the victorious miraculous life that Jesus wants us to live. And it's based on old Testament miracles. We talk a lot about new Testament miracles but I teach old Testament and the university.

And so I, I, tell these stories and, and talk about these things every day. And they're just so exciting. And so we don't have a working title yet, but there'll be probably about 30 chapters 30 miracles that we'll talk about. And each of those miracles has a lesson. For us today, and then at the end of each chapter there are a series of questions and a space for you to fill out your answers to those.

So it'll be kind of a workbook going through. That's one of the ways we're getting around the ban from Amazon on books. So it'll be included in the book. And it's, it's going to be, it's going to be a really, really good book. And then I continue to work on my dad's biography. And that I don't know how long that's going to take.

He had a big life. And so I had hoped to be out by Christmas this year, but I don't think so. And then last year we released one short story, one Christmas short story. So we're hoping that by this Christmas. We'll have a couple dozen of those short stories all written and compiled into one book that'll be talking about Christmas and the holidays and there'll be a good family stories, things that you can read with your family and be inspiring.

And so, yeah, we got, we got lots of stuff going on and we're, we're working all the time. When I'm not teaching or doing podcasts, I'm writing. So,

Jason: Very nice. So, yeah, no, that's, that's, that's amazing. I love the way you guys write, I look forward to it. And you have https://andsowewalked.org/. I'll put the link in the show notes. If you go there, I think you have a mailing list that you can sign up for. And

Rick: we do. And

Jason: a couple of emails that are like, Hey, free book. And they're good books. So, you know, if

Rick: most, most of what we send out in the, it's not, we're not always just trying to push our books. I think last month I had about 15 or 20 free books that other authors have written and they're offering to people. So we try to always have a real good selection. There are links to my blogs and in two different locations I write blogs.

And so you can get lots of information, but go to https://andsowewalked.org/. You can get information about us about our ministry places. We've been where we're going to be speaking. There's always news about upcoming books. We have a Children's book about the walk that we also published this year or last year

Jason: they walked where

Rick: Yeah, They Walked Where?

Jason: actually, I actually bought a copy of it because I was a digital copy. Cause I was, I wanted to see what it was all about. So

Rick: yeah. So

Jane: Quick story about that. We are, we are trying to get some of those books into doctor's offices. And the last. Well, the time before when I was at my orthopedist, I asked him, I said, can I leave one of these in your office? I don't know how many children come here, but he said, sure.

So the next time I went, I sat down and I was waiting for my appointment and a family came in and there was a little boy sitting next to me and he reached up and got our book and he was sitting right next to me and he was reading it with the help of his dad. And I looked over and I said. I was not trying not to be too invasive, you know, but I said, that book's about me and my husband.

He goes, really? And I said, yeah, my husband and I wrote that book. And he said, is there anything about trains in here? I love trains. And so I flipped over to the page about trains. It was just so awesome that God gave me that opportunity. And his parents were looking at me like, Really? You wrote that book?

I said, yep, I lived that book.

Rick: So we're we're trying to get it in as many pediatricians offices and doctor's offices. We can't cause everybody has to wait 15, 20 minutes and that's long enough to read that book. We're hoping that mom and dad will read it to the kids if they don't read. And then maybe they'll want the full length book for themselves just so they can get the story and be encouraged and, and you know, find what God wants them to do and then have the courage to do it. So

Jason: That's great.

Rick: it's just, it's just great. Yeah.

Jason: Well, I could talk to you guys for hours, but I think this is a pretty good place to wrap it up. I should have just let Rick plug his own stuff. Cause he did a way, way better job than me. Before, before we finish up though, is there anything else you want to share? Any parting words? Which is where Jane got me last time.

It's

Jane: I think you, you kind of summed it up at the beginning, Jason, there's no excuse. They're just, there's no excuse not to share. And there's lots of ways that, that anybody can do it.

Rick: Yeah, I'll take it from a positive standpoint. And that is once you start sharing Jesus with people and you see their response they won't all be positive, but the first time you have the opportunity to lead somebody to Christ, you'll be hooked.

You won't want to stop. You'll want to keep doing it and keep doing it and keep doing it. There is no greater thrill for us as Christians than to see someone else come into the kingdom of God and become part of his family. And of course, there's no greater experience that they can ever have. So even though you may be afraid or frightened or timid or whatever the case may be go ahead and, and, Push your limits and try it out.

Even if it's silently. And once you see people begin to be drawn to Christ you won't be able to stop. It'll be awesome. So

Jane: here's one more suggestion. I think this book can be used with families because there are actually ideas in the book that children can participate in. So there's, there's no reason why children can't start young.

They don't have to wait until they're a teenager or an adult. There's there's things children can do. Absolutely. To share their faith.

Jason: That's great. So be sure to check out all of their books, especially Until the Whole World Knows, a guide to sharing Jesus for the introvert, extrovert, and Jesus freak. Again, I have links to the show notes to all of their books, all the ones I could find. There may be some more. So go to their website too. Please, please, please check them out.

They are great. Doing God's work. They're good books. And to be honest, they're really affordable, not expensive books. So please take a moment to follow me on your favorite podcast app. Also check out the show notes for links to my social media, as well as Rick and Jane's goodies, their website and social media.

If you are so moved, you would love to hear from you. My website, https://myministrymission.com you can send me an email or just email info@myministrymission.com. If you like what you're hearing, find ways to support the show at https://myministrymission.com/support. Everything from giving me a tip to just sharing the podcast, or at least to share this episode and tell others about Rick and Jane.

So until next time, be sure to read your Bible, love your neighbor. May God bless you and keep you. God bless you listeners and God bless you, Rick and Jane. Thank you so

much.

Rick: you so much. Thank you.